There was a thread about this 4,1, thing for limits, a few months ago. I havent done the experiments myself, but it seems that after a bit of initial argument the experts agreed that 1 and 4 had exactly the same effect, and that if you put 1 in the cr2 and resaved it to the pallet, Poser would change the 1 to a 4. Apparently, someone at some stage had claimed that 1 and 4 had different effects, and everyone just accepted it as gospel. When it was tried out in practice no difference was found between 1 and 4. Really this is only hearsay on my part, but I seem to remember that the people in the thread were pretty credible characters, I think Ajax was one of them. Come to think of it, where is Ajax? I havent seen him around the forum for a long time. Ocham, thanks for the info on offsetA, thats another one of those pesky hidden channels nailed down. Now what about yTwisty or what ever its called?