Thanks TRAVISB all advice is appreciated. I think I'm OK on what edge loops are and even where to place them but I'm still a lttle hazy on why they are important (mainly for animating /morphing right?) Another unrelated area is the whole quads versus tris versus n-gons. I gather that quads are safer bet for subdividing because they sub-d more predictably but then I've also read that tris are better for the finished model because they always have a flat surface and therefore render better. Then there's the poles/stars thing, they're best avoided even though they can't be avoided! I've not read any disadvantages to poles, my guess is that they subdivide unpredictably? Phew, sorry about that didn't mean to run on so much! Baz