I actually tried some magnet manip last night and started to get some promising results. A perfect job will take hours however. I read up again on Vicki 3 and I am definitely going to get her today. The ad reads that they have pretty much done all that they can for fixing joints with ERC. The comments from the people who bought her already seem to be very positive towards this problem. I guess the main reason I am thinking about this problem is that with Poser 5's capabilitites now the last main obstacle to being a great program are the joint setup issues. I am thinking of a set of prefixed poses now that would cover most extreme pose possibilities, saving time for those of us who want to use these poses. As opposed to "standard" poses most of us could whip out in an hour, these would be heavily worked and a real boon to renders. Of course, Vicky 3 is just going to have to be it for animation. Yeah, those elbow and knee fixes on Vicki 1 and 2 don't do much for me either.