Thanks for the advice. I'll try to age the arm. And in case anyone is curious, it is a mirror. I had a heck of a time getting the green hills behind the camera to line up so that they showed in the mirror. One of my niggleys is the little spot of blue near the bottom of the mirror, its the sky showing not water. Not sure if I should leave it there and pretend its water or move the hills more to get rid of it. :) This was a very forgiving render, under a half hour I think so it shouldn't be a problem redoing some stuff in it. Ok thanks again.