LOL...my point exactly tjohn! Nice render BTW! Good use of the leaf editor in Tree Lab. Dan, Catlin_mc, thanks for the offer to do the conversions but I'd hate to be a pain in the - - - if everytime i decided I wanted to use one of the models in one of my renderings I'd have to bother you. Erlik, thanks for the link but I've already been all through there and couldn't find a reasonably priced piece of software to do the required conversion. They want $150 for Meshbox and I don't think I need the model that bad. I'll wait until Crossroads gets it together.