Thanx for the response guys, I can always depend on people from renderosity to sto my anger and bring me new faith in my frustrations. to Mark: My platform is: Dual Pentium II 400 256 MB ram Oxygen VX1 WinNT 4.0(SP6) I have the Carrara Patch and it solved many of the problems that I had when rendering, especially the SMP problem that was a real performance hit when rendering. I have been using Lightwave for about 5 years and I am pretty dam used to it but the lightwave modeler in many ways lacks in its interface, however I have the boolean operations down to an art with the modeler, however nurbs in Lightwave (which I hate!) requires too much tweaking when I go to the layout. For that reason I was generally switching between modelers in order to create some of my more complex objects which you can imagine, is very time consuming. I bought Carrara thinking that, yes finally a modeller that I can simply complete my entire mesh and export it to lightwave for scale and layout. That was my whole point in buying Carrara and maybe find a new complete 3D solution all together. But that turned out to be the least of my problems. I will check out Rhino, I hear a bit about it but I have never used it. Lightwave so far has been my most stable 3D solution and I have 3D studio max, lightwave, and raydream. I think that the only thing that keeps me hanging on to Carrara is see what it obviously could be.