Splutterfish is great as a render plugin for 3dsmax 4. But it pretty much brings it up to Lightwave standard (with or without G2 by worley) imho. Before 3dsmax5, it didnt have native radiosity or global illumination, you need plugins like brazil or final render for such things. It produced great renders but its a pain, as you have to add special 'brazil' lights that emit photons, and special 'brazil' texture plugins that accept them and emit caustics etc. Just think about doing that to a massive scene with hundreds of different surfaces, then tweaking them individually. Now that 3dsmax5 has native support for these things, I dont think brazil and final render are AS important as before. Im sure they are an improvement over the existing 3dsmax5 rendering engine, but for the price.. its not worth it. My 1.9 recurring cents. Shruggle. Soluble Hamster The one, the only, dissolvable rodent.