I really do appreciate all the useful comments... AND ALL WERE CONSTRUCTIVE !!! I guess I shoulda mentioned my computer specs. AMD 1800+ with 1GB ram, so I guess horse power isn't too much an issue. From what I read, the hair and cloth/material room are ummm.. "over the top for the casual user" .. yes ? which is the group I'm in. I don't have a lot of time or the attention span to sit and fiddle with them to get the results than can be garnered from them. They do sound like very detailed options and one can get great results... again with time and effort. (I guess the same can be said of any program..huh ?) I did view some of the galleries and was stunned by what I saw, some very good results.. far more lifelike than earlier versions of Poser. I guess I'll hold off for now and see what happens with both CL and Daz. Give CL a year on P5 and see how things look then, and also see what Daz's product looks like. As my mom would always say "if you had cake you'd want pie, if you had pie you'd want cake and if you had both, you wouldn't want either" LOL I do appreciate the time y'all took to respond to my inquiry. Mostly I use Poser as a supplement to things I make with Rhino and/or Bryce, it isn't my "primary" program so I'm not in a rush to move to either P5 or Daz. again thank you for your help, regards, bob