heyas; experts agree, the poser 3 phi file method works best ;) yes, you can use that method in any version of poser. the p3 phi method made it into the p4 manual... it probably got cut from the p5 manual, though. it was never in the p3 manual. if you don't have p4, you can get it from curious labs, poke around for the advtechniques.pdf file. if you have a pc (or an emulator), you can use roy riggs' phi builder, which makes the hardest part of the whole thing (writing out the phi hierarchy) painlessly easy. i think phi builder is in free stuff.