But we also remember being told that P5 was being rebuilt from the ground up: Leave no code unturned. In the meantime, CL released Avatar Lab when people were clamoring for P4 and PPP fixes since P5 was not ready and that was a big let down. (It was greeted with a "WTF?" response.) PPP never lived up to its promise for exporting to 3DS Max, not after 3 service packs. After 3 years, P5 came out. People felt lied to when they saw all the same unfixed bugs from P4 plus new ones. Combine that will all the delivery fiascos, (remember the "one-legged Irishman on his bike" jokes?) the price reduction below pre-order price soon after release when everyone who pre-ordered was promised a special deal, and the near uselessness of the P5 software out of the box and I think it's easy to understand the anger. I feel very sorry for the human beings that made up CL, but I don't feel sorry for the company. Whatever the reasons, they made bad business decisions and we're stuck with Russian Roulette software. Spin the barrel and pull the trigger. If you're lucky, it'll work for most things. (I haven't heard of anyone getting the collision for the hair to work properly, for example.) Some of us ended up with the bullet to the computer. Even with SR 2.1, it's still not doing all that I expected from the press releases, and I'm only using the Pose and Material Rooms. And as far as people can tell, they've turned away from Poser to support their sexy, new, hideously expensive 3D Internet software, just like MC did just before dumping Poser entirely. While I think a few people have gone overboard in their anger (and I'm not saying it's anyone in this thread), I really think disappointment, at the bare minimum, is perfectly justified. (I'm usually the Devil's Advocate, but since I'm going up against Chas, does that make me the Angels' Advocate?) ;-) Cres