I never said he was an ogre..lol He said it wouldn't work and even gave a test copy to see if it would work on your system before you bought it. It was no one's fault but my own that I bought it, just thought I could make it work a little easier than it did. I need to get the correct reference though I think that will be a good util to have. And I will ask him about the update, thought we got that kind of news in email, get enough of them telling me about new products...lol Phil, hope I can learn from one of the best, only have Truespace 4.0 but I'm getting the update for that now, just can't afford 5 yet. Thanks, Marque