I have to admit this makes me real uncomfortable, but I shy away from confrontations unless there is something worth fighting about and then I'm there to the bitter end-this is NOT it. I've just found on this forum that there is always complaint and debate about every issue (well, not just on this forum--geez, I've been on the net for years and its everywhere LOL) and then things settle down to a gentle roar. I don't expect that Jack, et.al, are really concerned too much about the flap--they are used to the same folks being vocal and then just going ahead and being part of the community. I also don't think there's anyone in this conversation that is a shill for any other group--just the diversity of the community. But then I'm one of those that thinks you get more bees with honey (though in real life my friends think I'm a bit agressive and competitive--go figure--here where noone knows me except through posts, I end up as a pussycat G). Diane B