Well I never though I could model to save myself but Bryce made me realise the impossible, sometimes is possible. Now TT and I have been working towards getting Maya and we're close, that's why I popped into their forum. Got to say though that in comparison Maya is like a ghost town with a cold wind running through it, there doesn't seen to be too many people involved there. Which makes me think that it wouldn't matter which other program I get involved with "This Forum" is still the best. Beats the rest of them hands down and that's thanks in a big way to you and Clay so thank you very much for your effort and untempered patience. Cheers and a big hug. Cat 8)