lol...my first poser renders were with poser 1. so, basically, they were nothing BUT postwork...with my ever so hot psp3.5. somewhere around then, i got bryce 2. my first "model" that i tried to make with booleans was a green frog on a lily pad...who was in love with a fishing bobber. i had to submerge his backend, because my booleans didn't work and it was just like an ugly blob. but, heyas...i cheerily put him up on my website...it was poppibird.webjump.com...he stayed there for years until webjump folded. granted, he was far from technically perfect...but....and, here is the big but (not the frog's big butt)I SPEND A LONG TIME MAKING HIM. I GAVE EVERY CARE TO MAKE HIM AS PERFECT AS I COULD WITH WHAT I HAD ON HAND. and, to this day, i am still proud of him...although, i can't find that render. i think the problem is not so much "lack of skill"...skills grow. and, an artist who i respected (do respect)to the nth degree emailed me about my stupid little frog and told me i had "raw" talent. we need to look inside and see where our own "raw" talent lies. i like artists who have a "style". i can see their thumb among 18 thumbs, and, immediately recognize their work. i think that if all of us went with what personifies "our" work...we'd make the gallery much friendlier viewing. and, dialyn...don't sell yourself short....i know you're playing with wings, doncha know. when are we gonna see a dialyn render using a model she made with wings? (i played with it the last couple of days and DAMNED...no one wants to see any of that.)