I also checked to make sure they were still +/- and they were. could it be that the negetive sphere I used to cut out the cab of the car is having some strang effect with the cones? I took the dash set up out of the car and it rendered, but when I placed it back in and grouped the whole thing it didnt again?? If I just group the cars chasis and seats and then group the dash, wont that make maoving the cars into different possitions difficult or is there some way to make them move together even if they arent grouped?