Actually ... I've had no problems with Poser5 ducks Don't know why I lucked out ... but I still use P4 for 90% of what I'm doing. There is exactly one thing that I use P5 for regularly at this point ... assigning material properties to v3 ...doing it piece by piece in p4 just kills me. So now I set one piece just right in p4, close it, open in p5, save the material and apply to everything else, then reopen in p4 and keep working. I haven't played with the cloth room, but the face room and hair room are interesting. I still prefer transmapped hair ... but I'm making a shaggy shetland pony who looks great (just don't ask how long to render, okay?) BTW keep the political stuff out of this forum please ... Lyrra