Thanks Praxis :o).....I wouldn't say its a problem with Vicky 3 i think DAZ just opened the joints a little to help prevent overlap when we bend the legs a lot.....I think we as users have developed a habit of ignoring the joint room kinda like a car owner that never opens the bonnet (hood ;o) of the car, yet if we did we could improve performance, this is one classic example of such a thing, and also if V2 users opened the joints a little when the leg is bent a lot........Steve