TO PapaBlueMarlin: Ok, that softens the blow a bit, I agree. I didn't find that page, in about twenty minutes of digging around. And I'm curious enough that I'd like to see where they end up when they pursue this. But I'm afraid I'm still very uncomfortable with the ideas these MBA folks are espousing. I look at that PHI "ideal" and all I have to do is imagine applying it to the roundfaced "beauties" in the movies and advertising and TV shows coming from Asian countries, much less the Japanese depictions of beauty in The Floating World, and I am immediately unpersuaded. I think the problem for me is that ambituous extension of this stuff into some sort of universal. Sure, they are on the right track, as regards the standards of beauty that govern the Western tradition (which have theoretical origins in Ancient Greece). But identifying our preferences, however hoary with generations of acceptance, with "what makes us look human" is way over a line I'm not willing to cross. M