Yeah this entire thread didn't make any sense to me. I don't see how the lips was difficult, and couldn't you use shapes for some of what you were trying to do? Anyway, I have no clue what you were trying to do:) It seems you are making things more complex then needed, the spline modeler is meant to be simple. If you want detailed construction use the VM or use Amapi 5 which comes with Carrara. Anyway, reexplain what you are trying to do, maybe we can figure out how to do it in the spline modeler, a ribbon and a pipe? Definetly sounds like something that needs shapes. Brian