I can't stress enough how useful the vertex modeler is. I initially came from Raydream 3d (much like Carrara 3d Basics), and in it I hadn't the use of the vertex modeler. The thing is really bloody useful, it changed my life... Er modeling life that is. What you've been wanting is, probably, what every Carrara user wants, NURBS. But even if we don't have that, the vertex modeler is extremely powerful next of the spline, and I hardly ever use the spline unless I need a complex extrusion path. The addition of subdivision modeling has made the vertex modeler all the more powerful. So while we are all waiting for Carrara 3, try to remedy yourself with it, its worth the headache and time. EMC