Dont get me wrong Simon, I think your great and I'm the last one who would pick a fight with you :) I think we can just agree to disagree on this one.. And maybe Im just an easily confused hairless chimp :) but using the logic I interpret from you, being that you are starting your first 2D image, if you use an expensive pencil (ferrari) then those of us who have sketched for years should just expect you to produce a masterpiece with a "top end look" and at the same time call you an idiot cause its your first 2D and you bought a ferrari without knowing how to handle it.. but if you use a cheap pencil (Vauxhall) we should praise your work and offer helpful advice on improvement at the same time expecting and accepting your work to be sub-par because of your choice of tools? For me Bryce is in fact a "pro" tool because it has been paying my bills for some time now. However just because it is not "the choice of professionals" somehow makes it a lesser tool? I legally own most of the other software you mention as being "pro" but I keep coming back to Bryce because it is the choice of THIS proffesional, and again I reitorate that it's not the tool that makes the art. Anyone can dig through my gallery and call it a heap of crap, but the tool did not by default make them. I did. So blame me and me alone. Anything else is if not elitism then at the very least a loose form of tribalism that has little logical foundation to stand on. But, now your adding a new complication to the mix in that only professionals (or those capable of producing professional works) should use professional tools thereby producing work worth looking at. By that same logic I should call a plumber to have him pour "professional strength Drano" drain cleaner in my bathtub or perhaps hire a trained chef to chop my onions with my set of "professional grade" kitchen knives or have a dentist come to brush my teeth every morning because 4 out of 5 of them choose the same toothpaste I do, because I might screw it up and not do as good a job, so why even bother. Just healthy, good humored debate my friend :) And yes you are very right Alvin, talent alone can be developed and discovered as well, but without at least the slightest bit of "diamond in the rough" to start with, rubbing away at a pile of manure is still going to result in nothing more than polishing a turd. :) Boy, that DryFly is just an argumenative guy today aint he? :) Best to all..back to work fer me now.. :)