here is a picture of a spoon and fork i did. this is the reason why i need to a tutorial that i can understand or i well be modelling these for the rest of my life. the fork i think is fine i just need to bring the teeth out more. but the spoon needs alot of help. Baz what i did on the spoon is i used a cylinder to make the first shape, then i extruded a bit so i would have a top and bottom for it. then i hightlighted the top poly and beveled it out and upwards. then i think i extruded using the numeric window to get it to have a second skin. but i am seeing i didnt give it a thick enough one. also without knowing how wide and upwards to make the bowl of the spoon it came out pretty flat. and to top it all off the center of it isnt smooth. i didnt know what to do with that so i stretched all those points into one. paul, i used lightwave for this, but i also have rhino. although without a tutorial i wouldnt know where to start in rhino to make this and even worse how to save it so the mesh isnt huge.