thisis for Crescent's message above. I have to comment on this message of Crescent (which is public); I hope I will be allowed, because it seems now that I should talk only in private; but since this is public, i would like to reply in public. I'll paste my comments in capitals, juts to differentiate them from teh text of Crescent, not to signify shouting. MichelleA did give reasons for the removal, the model was playing with her breasts. CORRECT, SHE DID GAVE EXPLANATIONS, BUT THESE DO NOT HAVE A CORRESPONDENT IN THE TOS. ALSO THE IMAGE OF BRANDAN IS ABOUT TOUCHING OF BREASTS. BUT MINE HAS BEEN DELETED, THIS ONE NO. OF COURSE THERE IS A DIFFERENT FEEL TO THE 2 PICS, I AGREE. BUT THIS ONLY IMPLIES THAT THE TOS THE WAY IT IS NOW IS NOT ADEQUATE. I JUST INVITED AN EXPLANATION ON THIS. If you want my blunt explanation - the picture looked like a porn site ad. We don't want this site to become another Renderotica. THAT'S YOUR PERSONAL OPINION, FINE. YOU DON'T WANT TO THIS SITE TO BECOME ANOTHER RENDEROTICA? HOW ABOUT THE MARKETPLACE? IS THAT FAMILY ORIENTED? We also don't want to become another Disney, either. We're trying to be somewhere in the middle. As Spike pointed out earlier, even if you post an image that's against TOS, you are simply IMed the reason the image was pulled. I WAS EMAILED, NOT IM'ED No action is taken unless you keep violating the TOS deliberately, such as posting kiddie porn, reposting the same yanked image over and over, etc. I WAS NOT TRYING TO BE CLEVER, I THOUGHT IN ALL GOOD FAITH THAT THE IMAGE WAS BANNED FROM THE GALLERIES, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS ALLOWED TO DISCUSS IT HERE. I AM AWFULLY SORRY ABOUT THAT, BUT I DON'T THINK I COMMITTED A CAPITAL CRIME. I SIGNED UP 3 MONTSH AGO, I DON'T KNOW ALL THE RULES AND CERTAINLY THE RULE THAT IF SOMETHING IS REMOVED FROM THE GALLERIES IT CANNOT BE DISCUSSED HERE IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND. SOME MORE FOOD FOR THOUGHT. Here's the general process for a disputed image: 1) Mod either sees an image they feel is over the TOS or receives a complaint about an image and tags it. (I don't know which it was for gilo25, and I don't care. The net effect is the image is brought up for a vote.) 2) Unless the image is seriously over TOS, such as kiddie porn which is immediately yanked, the image is posted for the Mods to look at and take a vote on. 3) The Mods vote, giving their reason(s) why the image should stay or go. Majority rules. (We don't always agree, but not even the Supreme Court has unanimous rulings and they're trained in legal interpretations.) 4) If the image is deemed okay (and, yes, this does happen sometimes) then it stays. If someone had complained about the image, they're informed that the image has been deemed suitable for the community. If the image is considered against TOS, then the Mod who asked for the vote IMs the poster and give the reason(s) why the image was pulled. Depending on the Mod, it might be a short summary or a longer description. The member is free to contact the Mod for a more detailed description. WHICH I DID. YOU ALL SAW THE EMAIL I SENT TO MICHELLE. If the artist disagrees, they can go to the Admins or even the site owners to argue their case. IN FACT I DID SEND A MESSAGE TO MICHELLE WHICH AS FAR AS I KNOW WAS IGNORED. BUT I WAS NOT ARGUING AGAINST ITS REMOVAL: I WAS ASTONISHED THAT TEHRE WAS NOTHING IN THE TOS TO GUIDE ME AND WANTED AN EXPLANATION AS FAR AS THE DELETION OF THAT PIC WAS CONCERNED. The replies in the gilo25 thread weren't meant as "sod off" responses to people asking legitimate questions to better stand the TOS, BUT THAT'S THE WAY THEY CAME ACROSS.LOCKING THE THREAD ALSO SIGNIFIES 'SOD OFF' TO ME. but if you enter a heated argument, you may get some strained responses. Instead of telling you to shut up, despite a very provocative thread title, THERE WAS NOTHING PROVOCATIVE IN MY TITLE. WHAT'S PROVOCATIVE ABOUT 'CENSORSHIP'? OR ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD? THERE IS NOTHING PROVOCATIVE HERE EITHER. JUST A FACT.we've asked you and everyone else for suggestions on how to improve the TOS. I don't think that's treating members badly. NO IT'S NOT AND I (AND EVERYBODY) APPRECIATED THAT. Consider how the thread went: 1) gilo25 posts that we're censoring his pictures because one was removed. TRUE. ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT? As he quotes MichelleA: One of your gallery items has been removed by the staff at Renderosity.com for the following reason: We received complaints on this image and after a lot of deliberation it was decided that this image is unsuitable for the gallery. It has an overt sexual feeling running thru it. In general images of breast touching haven't been allowed either, so that is another reason for it's removal. As this is supposed to be a PG-13 site something like this is probably better suited towards sites like Renderotica. I'm sorry for any problems this may cause you. The message he quotes does spell out why the image was rejected.CORRECT. BUT THE TOS SHOWS NO CORRESPEONDNCE WITH THE REASONS BROUGHT FORWARD. HENCE THE PROBLEM AND TEH REQUEST FOR CLARIFICATION. WHICH WAS NEVER ANSWERED. He also tries to post the image that he had already been told was rejected from the site. IN ABSOLUTE GOOD FAITH. I THOUGHT IT CAN BE DISCUSSED, AS I SAID BEFORE. He also accuses MichelleA and the rest of us of being bigots in the first post: If you continue with this arbitrary acts of censorship I will have no choice but to leave this site. I have no problems with that, as there are plenty of other sites where one can post without suffering the rigors of such bigot censorship, but I would like to know first what the Renderosity community thinks. YES, BECAUSE I WAS GETTING ANNOYED BY THE FACT THAT MY PRIVATE REQUEST FOR CLARIFICATIONS WENT IGNORED. 2) AgentSmith pulls the image. If it's not allowed in the gallery, it's not allowed in the forums, either. GOOD TO KNOW. 3) gilo25 likens AgentSmith to the KGB and insults the Mods of Renderosity in general: One more element here for you all to judge upon: I was trying to upload the incriminated image to give everybody a chance to judge, but it was being removed as fast as light by agentsmith, whose name reminds very much of a KGB spy. Looks like this is the climate we live in, here at Renderosity. YES, AFTER HAVING WRITTEN AND BEING IGNORED, AFTER TRYING TO GET A DEBATE GOING, SEEING THE SARCASM OF AGENTSMITH FRANKLY GOT ME AS MUCH ANGRY AS MICHELLE'S ACCUSATION OF STIRRING UP A STINK. BUT I DID SAY ABOVE THAT I DID NEVER MEAN TO LIKEN YOUR ACT TO AN ACT OF MURDER. This was partially in response to AgentSmith's IM to gilo25, where he put in a smiley face in an attempt to soften his message. This was taken the wrong way by gilo25 and AgentSmith did apologize to him for that misunderstanding privately, but not only was the apology not accepted, but the comments against AgentSmith continued. I DON'T THINK THERE WAS ANYTHING ELSE AGAINST HIM. IN ANY CASE YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT MY SITUATION WAS NOT THAT 'GLORIOUS', CONSIDERING HOW I HAD BEEN TREATED FOR QUITE SOME TIME, I.E. FROM TOTAL NEGLECT TO SARCASM. THAT'S WHAT I FELT, AND NOBODY CAN TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME. EXACTLY LIKE YOU FELT INSULTED BY THE COMPARISON WITH THE POLICE (WHICH BY THE WAY SPIKE HIMSELF HAS JUST BROUGHT UP, IN ANOTHER VERY UNFORTUNATE IM IN WHICH HE WAS IN REALITY SUPPOSED TO 'TALK' TO ME, A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE MODS AND POLICE. I AM PARAPHARSING HIM: HE SAID 'WHY DID YOU POST THE IMAGE AGAIN? WOULD YOU SPEED OFF WITH YOUR CAR IF YOU HAVE JUST BEEN GIVEN A FINE FOR SPEEDING? SO WHO IS TALKING ABOUT POLICE NOW? BUT I DON'T WANT TO DWELL ON THAT COZ I AM GOING TO BE CURSED, KNOWING HOW THINGS GO. ...) I FELT INSULTED BY BEING NEGLECTED AND LAUGHED AT. 4) At this point, AgentSmith and MichelleA both pop in and again say that this is nothing against gilo25 but the image does not fit the site.FINE, BUT WHERE IS THE EXPLANATION OF THE CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE TOS? They also state that we try to be consistant, BUT YOU ARE NOT, AS THE MARKETPLACE SHOWS. OF COURSE NOBODY IS PERFECT BUT SUCH BLATANT CONTRADICTION SHOULD BE EASILY AVOIDED. but with borderline pictures, it is a case-by-case basis. (I also pop in as well to try to explain the decision as my name was indirectly dragged into it with an incorrect reference to a Poser thread.) 5) There's some general arguing as to what pictures have breast touching and which don't. Other members join in. 6) gilo25 likens AgentSmith and Renderosity to a military junta: Kevin, I am afraid you are talking like a spokesman of a military junta here: 'And your image was so deemed by the moderator team. We each looked at it and came to a decision. The image is unsuitable for this site.' Sounds like when they arrested Aung Sang Sukyi for her own good... mmhhh.. And, as it is often the case for the statements of military juntas, your words are not supported by facts. TRUE, I ALREADY SAID WHY I SAID THIS. 7) At this point, the Mods start getting annoyed, POOR THINGS. I HAD BEEN ANNOYED FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS ALREADY. AND CORRECTLY SO. including myself, being accused of having no regard for any members of Renderosity and of persecuting gilo25. THAT'S WHAT IT SEEMED, I AM AFRAID. Until that point, all the Mod responses have been polite but firm. After the last accusation, the responses get blunt. Even though we've been accused of being on par with the Burmese militia, at no time do we start insulting gilo25 back. REALLY? WHAT ABOUT THE STIRRING UP STINK? WAS THAT NOT A DELIBERATE ATTEMPT OF GETTING OFFENSIVE? 8) MichelleA actually did give reasons that the picture was deleted. YES WE KNOW THAT. gilo25 posted it in the initial post of the thread. gilo25 didn't like the reason but gilo25 did not respond back to MichelleA's message for further clarification. YES I DID. I PASTED THE MESSAGE ABOVE. (Or if he did reply, she never received it. VERY UNFORTUNATE, BUT WHAT CAN I DO ABOUT IT? IN ANY CASE YOU CAN'T PROVE SHE DIDN'T GET IT AS I CAN'T PROVE I SENT IT. WE ARE EVEN. MY WORD AGAINST YOURS. She asked the other Mods if they'd been contacted by gilo25 because she never had, THE MESSAGE IS THERE FOR YOU TO READ. that's how I know she hadn't been contacted. SHE THAD. AND THISLAST STATEMENT OF YOURS IS ALL TO BE PROVEN. SINCE YOU CAN'T, THE FACT REMAINS THAT I FELT INSULTED BY THE WORDS OF MICHELLE. YOU CAN'T DENY THAT. have no reason to believe she'd lie on this.)I DO, BUT THAT'S ANOTHER STORY. AGAIN YOUR WORD AGAISNT MINE. 9) With all the insults that gilo25 tossed at us, THE ONLY AND EXCLUSIVE THING WHICH MAY HAVE BEEN INAPPROPRIATE (BUT I DON'T SEE IT AS A BIG DEAL) IS THE COMPARISON WITH THE JUNTA, WHICH WE DEALT WITH ALREDAY. ALL THE REST IS JUST PURE FACTS, NO INSULTS AT ALL. I personally feel that "stiring things up" isn't that far from the truth. IT IS. AND HERE YOU JOIN HER IN INSULTING ME AGAIN. I DID SEND A MESSAGE AND YOU (AS MOD) HAVE TO WATCH YOUR WORDS AS MUCH (IF NOT MORE) AS WE HAVE TO WATCH OURS. He starts off swinging, threatening to pack up and leave and calling us bigot GS WORSE. censors. ARE YOU AFRAIA IF I LEAVE? WHAT KIND OF THREAT IS THAT STATEMENT OF MINE? If he'd simply posted something like, "Could you please clarify the TOS?" or "Could you please explain why my image was removed?" I DID BUT YOU NEVER REPLIED TO IT, AS I AM SAYING FOR THE 15TH TIME. and given us time to answer, then it would have been something entirely different. YES, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT. SO ARE YOU KNOW SAYING THAT YOU DID RECEIVE IT BUT YOU DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO REPLY? I hope this better clarifies NO IT DOESN'T. IT MAKES THINK WORSE