Quattro, no one is saying that firefly renders intrinsicly make better art. it's more about what can be acheeved with this new tool and i certainly understand the no postworkers side of the argument. they are not saying the artwork would be better without poswork but that it could be cool to see what can be done completely within the renderer. this argument has been going on forever and it always seems that people take the no postwork idea the wrong way. whats being talked about here is not the artistic merrits of the work but the pure craft of creating an image compleately with a single tool.