I've never saw much need for negative light until reading Birn's book. There are some tricks where it looks of use (and a gel or cookie won't do the same thing). Not really a big deal, just curious. Thanks for the info on the light brightness. It is one of those things I'd've have (hopefully) uncovered on my own but with the slow GI render speeds, it might have taken a few days. Definitely worth experimenting, too, of course. Marc