Hi Thanks for the input I've already got wild/messy ponytail+expansion and the full and feathered I find they all have uses but the thing I have problems with is getting the feeling of movement in to it like the wind in a storm or the swing as the head turns and sorry guys I hate the era of the razzle dazzle so won't touch it with a barge pole! (sorry just me no offense meant) With regard to the job yesterday was the first we heared of it , the exec officer made an anouncement to the stock exchange , we were told that if we wanted to we could read a transcript on the web or listen to a recording then next thing the BBC and skynews are saying we are losing 550 jobs mainly in our departments by either the begining or the end of 2004. We haven't heared anything else officially since. No damage control anouncement or anything. So you can see why I want to bury myself in image making or a book or a physical model just to escape. thanks again folks Dave (btw I work would you belive for a large newspaper company!! hows that for communication )