maclean, If CL were here their input would be much appreciated, if only to tell us what this 'magic' number means. It would be nice to be able to pin this whole question down, but see my reply to williamsheil above. SamTherapy, Thanks for the info on UK standard building ceiling heights. It's interestingly close to the figure I'm looking for. Imkenzie, I can't find posts by CL or Larry Weinberg on this subject. I admit I haven't tried the simple email option. Jim, ROFL. Arcane knowledge comes to the rescue. MallenLane, Interesting info on V3. We are beset by problems. RAMNIMUS LOL. An eight foot 'thing' would probably not win you many ladies, but you could do great elephant impression by pulling the lining of your trouser pockets inside out to make the elephants ears, and then ..... Carolly That would be great. and last but certainly not least Dr geep Thanks for the support. Thanks for fielding the questions (which I sneakily avoided by sleeping). Thanks for pointing various links to this thread. 69.75 of your units is 5 feet nine and a quarter inches, I could go for that :-). Well I think you get the idea.... Hope I haven't missed anybody. Time for more sleep Ian