thanks all for your responses - a great help - I was one of those people on the Eastern Seaboard who lost power for the last 2 days I pathetically tried to hook up my computer to a welding machine generator but it kept surging!!!! god 100 degrees, no air conditioning no lights and NO COMPUTER what hell!!! anyway,,,,,, ive been rendering scenes and using layers i didnt think i would be able to piece back together, but it works ok catlin- thank god for plop render huh!! and flak your making of the siege is amazing thanks for the link thanks again roch222