Yeah, but, Joey, it's Real Art cause the computer didn't do it. God, I have heard this "the computer did it" since my ththird International Fractal Contest. I sat around waiting for a couple of weeks for the computer to do that-- it never did. And UF is a friendly program compared to Poser. Longer renders sometimes. I'm beginning to think that computer artists should emphasize and revel in the fact that what we do cannot be done without a computer-- this is more true in Fractals, and if you think fractals are still in the Grateful Dead cover phase, you don't know fractals. But cgi art comes close to computer only and animation surpasses it. I like blending postwork into 3D alot, but even that is strikingly computer specific. Yes you could create linoleum cut grunge brushes but fading them, burning them-- can we not just accept that creativity can be freed by the computer as well as tied up and sealed in boxes of cliche? I mean, sorry to hit the artistic heroes of many, but how many times has Valleyo repeated himself? If you are creative, the tool don't matter. If you are not, you can use Rembrandt's own brushes and oils and still produce the equivalence of Naked Vickis in Temples. Emily