well abotu posing and such take photography, it is called an "art"... But does the photograph MADE the woman model that poe frotn of him ? no, parents of her made her yet no one will complain abotu him not being a good photograph or artists as he uses a model he did not made. so for people in 3d communauty shunnign people that annot do modelling or texturing, i say that NO ONE can master ALL skills needed at once. Many modellers are talented but unable to do good postwork and use of a paint software, many peopel make stunning realistic textures without always being able to 3d modelling a full human body. Now for the person using someone's else 3d human body, and someone else's realistic texture, there is still much artistic work to make, such as ligthing, pose, and postwork Also why would people only wanting to try to share what they have in mind to be able to do what someone took 10 years to master ? Art is abotu feelign and imaginations. You cannot even graba pencil and ake decent strokes? that does not mean you have no feelings or imagination to share and communicate to others. As long as it took you to learn or practice any specal skill related to the art medium you use, as long as it required you to think and to try to express your feelings and to comunicate what your imagination made in your head, it is art IF you manage to have people getting same feeling. I saw photographs or poser artists who could totally change a picture/scene only by ligthing. And what to say abotu all those japanese poser hobbyists or artists that manage to make so many postworkless renders to look so good ? I refer to it as such a person: i began stopping only looking in awe to other works (many artists here impress me, and most of the others please me much too). I started from nothing. Once upon a time i tried to draw with pencils, tried to learn. I was unable to, and now also my hand is crippled so i will never be able to try it again. So i had to resort at describing my feelings and ideas to a friend of mine who was drawing very good and we made a perfect team. A few months ago i took the first step: i began to try out a paint software for the first time in my life (i sometime used some cropping/rescalling and basic operations but no compositing, no drawing, no layer etc). I began to ake soem textures but of course i was unsatisfied and i saw many peopel here making stunnign textures, but i try to learn at my own pace/speed. Then i saw that a GOOD poser render (not even a postworked image) needed MORE than simply click "Render" and wait :) So i began to look for tutorials about lighting, bumpmapping, materials, and such. After that i also had some need that made me learn about depth cue, morph targets and so on. I know i will never be a 3d modellist, because i use poser as a hobby, already have things to do irl for my job and such. I also know that as my needs as an hobbyist requires me to do most of my things myself except 3d models and that what i need , i never found it on artist's marketplaes or free contributions (very narrow needs), i cannot rely on anyone, i have to learn all at once many skills, all by myself. I think many good artists here are specialised in 2 or 3 aspects, mostly postworking (still unable to do it, want to learn) but they sure use other's work for things they do not master and cannot spare/afford the time to learn it by themselves, else they would not be as good in their part. So i have, as always, to be a jack of all trade, in a superficial and low end level, but that's life. Yet even with crude skills, i have "ideas" and i managed to please peopel with my art, and mostly to put down my feelings or ideas/itenntions on a picture. Dont matter if it is superb as many peopel here, what matters to me is that people looking my art feels what i felt making/imaginating it. and as someone told here (shadowind i think), what is painfull when you show digital assisted art to people not into it, you hear the painful question "wow you did this yourself ?" and so you have to painfully explain that you did not model the character yourself polygon by polygon.. so what did you do ? you have to explain that you not always made the texture to... "so what did you do ?" and then you are totally sad :( But of course computer is not the artist, it is a tool. How many peopel can make complex math operations by head ? so for digital artists. So of course the computer take care of many com^plex things, but things we couldn't do all by ourselves from scratch, but the computer wouldn't be able to make it without us too :) I never saw a computer to make its own 3d mesh, texture, pose it light it, postwork it, render it without anyone ! (maybe in the future) want an analogy with music industry ? What are DJ's ? they take samples, existing tuns and songs, and computers and mahines, and they mix it up... They are labelled ARTISTS, and became more famous, gain more glory that the artists who composed the tunes they used. I do not tel there is no talent at mixing parts, in fact, DJing is like ooking, of course you did not make the ingredients but the final dish is yours, yet it is less simple if you ask me. So if a DJ who use other's tunes/songs is labelled as a CREATOR, an ARTIST and his name become more famous, or put more forwards than the artist who created the tune he used, then why wouldnt we call people using meshes, textures and such and computers, to produce pictures, Artists ? Nowadays, for youths, the only artist is the dj, composers of the ripped off tunes are only "ingredients", without name for most people... Think about that ! Here at least we give credit to people we use the materials from and they are praised for their legitimate work. 3d/computer rt is less hyppocrit than most traditionnal arts such as music, photography and such ! sorry for the long post, i cannto connect often nowadays and did not want to put 3 or 3 replies in the threads as i could not :( (excuse also my poor english and my typos...)