I know this might open up a huge debate, but a recent posting regarding Maz's Objaction Mover and Zygote Models got me thinking. Since we did not create the geometries we use when we make a character or article of clothing, do we own the rights to it. For example, I tell people they can't use my female cop professionally unless they get my permission along with all of the artists who made the parts I used for her. But when you get down to it, yeah I did work, but I didn't create the geometry for the body. I only built on a copyrighted figure owned by another company. Am I protected by copyright? Do I even own the rights to that figure? Since we can't give it away to people without the original object geometry, I have to wonder. I am pretty sure that you can have a copywrite on TV script you submit for an already existing show (i.e. building on other peoples already existing stories) to protect yourself. But again, you can't sell that story to another show and have them use the same characters since you don't own them. By that logic it seems that to some degree, we own what we've made even if we are bulding off of zygotes models. So what's the deal. If someone uses my character for compensation without my consent, am I protected? Thanks Aharon

Well, this is where I was wrong in the past ... I thought I could manipulate and repost (let me say) poser-things that where not mine. This was a copyright-violation. But if you go deeper in detail it is a copyright-violation as well if you're using this poser-things in an image ?? This is an interestant question ... And at the moment I'm making many many Poses (they will be available on a homepage for free soon ...) ... What if they look like !! some existing poses allready made by another person (and he/she said they are copyright-protected) ?? Do I break a copyright-law then ??? The only thing I thought I can do is to say that something like this is accidental ... I thought. It is very interesting to know what the public thought about that ... For my case I'm make my poses free for anything ... - except reselling. I think I have no copyright on that and I have d/l so many free things - so I maybe could give something back to the public ...

I'm happy to say that I'm not in the modelling game. So I don't have to worry about this, just yet! But I have read in a previous post, that if you build a model from an existing model, that over 50% plus must be different, for you to claim it is a new model. This is a big grey area, and a very subjective one, what constitutes a 50% plus change? What I understand in term of render work is that, what ever you render belongs to you, as it constitutes something completely new, regardless of who owns the models used. So 100% new yours...51% new still yours, 49/50% questionable. If I'm utterly wrong in any or all of the above clauses, and any party or parties disagrees with the afore mention statements, I accept no liablity whatsoever, and will run away very fast and hide:) regards, Tribe.

My understanding is a 20% change, and that does NOT mean simply moving the geometry around on the model. It means a REAL 20% CHANGE to it. Adding or removing geometry by 20% is perhaps the best way to describe that. Now, about the art copyrights- An artist, no matter the TOOLS used, OWNS the copyright to HIS/HER created art. Meshes/models/programs, etc are nothing but TOOLS for the art. An artist can claim his mesh is an art, btw. Any tool can be claimed as an art. A finished picture created using those tools is obviously different than the original, thus is the picture artists property. Now then, there is also the area of licensed copyrighted stuff. I'll use Star Trek as an example. Viacom/Paramount own the copyright to Star Trek. No one may make money off of that franchise without permission. But one CAN create personal art, meaning for private use. If you were to do a magazine cover for a Star Trek mag, then that mag must be the one that has the permission from Paramount to have Trek art on it's cover. The mag must ALSO have permission from YOU, the artist, to display YOUR art work. This is also the area where you can actually make money off a copyrighted franchise, because the mag is a go-between, highering you to do their cover art while getting the permission from paramount to display it commercially. Hope some of this made sense. If not, post the questionable parts and I (or someone who can word it better) will try to explain it better.

Well, I hate to say this, but I have problems with people claiming copyrights on poses, and for that matter CR2 files, as in both cases they are just a collections of settings, they you could come up with independanyly, without any software outside Poser (other tahn a simmple word processor). By CR2s I mean one without any imbedded geometry, like morphs. But the geometry problem has bothered me for awhile, at one time, like many others, I started with the Poser figures and made clothing out of them, they were certainly more than 20% modified, more like 75% changed, and it would be impossable to recreate the original figure from the clothing. But it still bothered me. So I don't do that anymore, I do my mesh from scratch, it doesn't look anything like the Poser mesh, and as a side result I get better-for-my purposes mesh, my newer stuff is fairly low polygon count, works on all computers, less filling!

Jim, that's a good point on CR2 files. Myself I look at a CR2 file like a piece of paper with writing on it L Sometimes a real thin line is created with geometry issues- Example- A new shirt I just made. No way can it be duplicated back to it's original geometry, as it's about a 75 change (like your early stuff), so I claim it as my creation. BUT take Paul and Polly for example- Vickie head, Poser 4 bodies. It's not Vickie, it's not a Poser 4 original figure. THis is an EXTREME grey line area, since neither is the original and the original COMPLE figures cannot be created using them. HOWEVER, I used TWO copyrighted figures from the SAME creators (Zygote) to make them. Technically, if I wanted to, I could probably claim both as mine. But I won't, because- 1. That's just NOT cool at all. 2. Zygote put TOO much hard work into their original characters for me to just come along, change a few things here and there, then run off with it as mine. No... Zygote gets full credit for them for the geometry (except the necks! L Those are mine for sure), period. But that's me personally. Some ass-wipe would probably do the opposite L

I think copyright has mostly to do with respect! How much do you respect your fellow artists, how much you value and appreciate their effort and work they put in a model...then it comes to the next step..how inflated an opinion you have of yourself to call something your very own when you have used Morphs, props and a zillion utilities -all available for free- to reach the final outcome...I guess this has to be answered by each and everyone individually according to his/her ethics! Some people are sensitive and cautious.. others just don't care! I always make sure to give credit even to the creator of the slightest important prop when I use it..whether it's an image or a character..even when it's so transformed or modified that most probably wouldn't be recognized by him if he saw it! To me that's the right way to do things! I've seen stuff of mine as well as others that I do recognize, being used without the slightest credit given.. it upsets me, yes, but then I accept it since I've chosen myself to participate in the freebies game too..noone forced me! The only way to be 100% sure that any of your creations will never get abused is never to post anything! But sometimes..it's worth it to spend a few minutes more to search in your database or post a thread just to find the creator of something you use..we spend endless hours to create an image or character or texture we are proud of ..what's a few minutes more? But then as I said..people are not all the same! Sad but true! Maybe if we DID respect each other more -instead of tearing each other's flesh so often- there would be no need for copyrights..an Utopia I know..but that's the way I feel about this subject. :o)

:o) Put WAY better than my second post. Well said.

I used to try... to give credit.. to everyone who made anything i used... in a render... because i deeply appreciate all the hardwork... that went into the creation of every morph, texture and model i use... but i once saw a picture here... done to point something out... every and i mean everything had a credit... from the computer maker.. to code compilers... through the characters and props... all put on the render.. the actual render.. was the size of the thumbnail.. that was all the room left... I try to give credit to the focal pieces of my art.. and hope the maker whom i overlooked.. of something smaller... of my own forgetfullness..... gets a nice feeling of seeing his or her hard work making my art look so much better

I worked for a sportswear/screenprinting design company a few years back that brought in one of their retained lawfirm's junior members to lecture the art department about copyright law. He attempted to explain that, if you change 7 different elements of an existing design, and don't use the published name, then it's your's. Applying this attitude to the topic at hand would mean that one would have to make 7 unique and substantial changes to the geometry of an object, not using anyone elses morphs, before it was your's. Textures do not apply. I could make a Poser dork completely blue, and say that there were enough individual changes in the left hand alone (joint by joint) to cover me. As far as geometry is concerned, and this is only my opinion: If you want exclusive copyright to something, model it yourself. With regards to images, I don't have a clue; but I'd tend to have the same opinion. We can't begrudge someone for selling a piece of work that they made out of primitives and materials in Bryce as the cover for a sci-fi or fantasy novel. They were using their pencil to their best advantage. On the other hand, if someone sells a premanufactured design, such as a better mousetrap or the Victoria mesh, as their own work, to someone who will profit from it's purchase, then it's a definite infringement of copyright. Thanks for your time, ~Dave

According to previous posts from the folks at Zygote, (I don't have any links to the threads) meshes are copyrighted to the creator. Anything made using even one vertex of the original model still falls under the copyright of the original creator. Your renders are yours, provided you follow the requirements specified by the readme files accompanying any third party downloads (props, textures, etc...) you use. I don't know if Zygote has said anything about Cr2s or morphs, but I would suspect that they would fall under the copyright of the original creator, as well, including combinations of meshes/characters from the same source.

This has been referenced a few times but this is the quote from Chad at Zygots & here's the original thread this was pulled from... http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=118417&Form.sess_id=109465&Form.sess_key=9602 (begin quote) "If I can, I'd like to add a little, too. Feel free to quote me anywhere else this subject is being discussed. Like Scott said, copyright infringment of software code (including 3D models) is not measured in percentage of change, as it is for traditional media or binary images (not to mention music, stories, etc.) Even a small amount of usage of someone else's programing code is illegal. For example, if I wanted to write a program that had the exact same features as Adobe Photoshop I could, of course, do that. However, if I took even a few lines of code directly from Photoshop and put them into my new code it would be illegal. (Much less starting from Photoshop's actual program code and then going through it to make modifications here and there until I felt I had hit the 51% different mark.) That having been said, you will probably see why it is still perfectly legal to make, sell, and/or give away a "plug-in" program for Photoshop (authorized by Adobe or not). Users will still need to buy Photoshop itself for any add-ons to be useful. As I said, copyright infringment of 3D computer model data is determined the same way as software code Someone can change models to the point that they think they will be unrecognizable the makers, but they are still stealing from whomever created the model. As far as the "plug-in" analogy goes, if someone modifies one of the models included in Poser, for example, (ie: creates a morph target for that model) then they are working within the Poser license agreement. It is also OK if they want to sell or give away their work (morph targets) to others who have purchased Poser (since they also own a license to the same models). This is, in fact, benefical to all parties involved and makes Poser a more desireable product. They are essentially paying the person for their changes to the model and not for the original model. Problems arise when people modify models (to create morph targets, new models, or whatever) and then pass those changed models along to users who have not purchased the original models. (For example, as a free downloadable model rather than in a format which requires posession of the original model, such as .cr2, .pcf, etc.) Obviously, there is no way that any company or individual can make sure that everyone is following the terms of their license agreement. Zygote appreciates all the efforts you people in the Poser community have made to prevent violations of model license agreements (Zygote's and otherwise). Thanks. -- Chad Smith Zygote Media Group " (end quote)

Thanks for finding and posting this, Cooler. I was just getting ready to search for it. I also e-mailed Zygote and asked them to come here and straighten this out, but they probably won't need to now. And, as an addition to the thread, Maz's OBJAction Mover and PCF files can't be used for profit, as stated in the readme with the program: "This program is the second in a suite of at least four that I have planned, for easing the burden of Poser .obj file manipulators. It is offered free of charge for personal use only. It is copyright software and may not be used for commercial gain in any form.

From what I understand of what Chad is saying, its OK to distribute the models IF your require a portion of the orginal package to use it. Maybe Zygote should consider creating some sort of kernel into their models ie a special geometry that is like a key. It could be hidden and not rely at all on what the shape looks like. Then, if a user wants to use a model in Poser, they need that key element or it won't load. What I see a problem with are bastardized figures like Eve and the p4/vickie characters. What is the original here? What is not? I suppose objaction mover would work on one of these even if only 15% of the model was like the p4 fem. In any event, some sort of key shape mechanism would be helpful. I think what the entire computer industry needs is some sort of new standard of data that has imbedded identifiers that cannot be altered.

Mason, the Vickie original is needed to unlock the Paul and Polly PCF files (the bastard figures you mention L). Therefore, no one can use them unless they already own the Victoria model. And if they own the Victoria model, chances are they own Poser as well, and thus have the P4 characters. So all they are getting is what they already have, just modified. And this is why Zygote STILL gets the credit for them. The ONLY thing I did was make the merging.

Yes you own the rights to things you create. If you modify somebody else's stuff then you only own the rights to the bits you did. Even if you did 99% of the finished article the originator of the other 1% is entitled to protection. Objaction Mover (& Maconverter)provide this protection. If you just publish an image (.jpg) using somebody else's mesh then nobody gives a monkey's (British expression meaning an infinittessimally minuscule amount). If on the other hand you distribute the mesh, then you can be got for infringement of copyright. Mover was created to promote the free transfer of meshes (obj files) that otherwise would infringe the original mesh creator's copyright. It's provided free and you can use it free of charge for anything you like as long as no money, real or virtual, changes hands. I have no problem with it being used for commercial purposes but a royalty is payable. Only one commercial user has contacted me so far and we have reached an amicable agreement for him to continue using Mover for selling his figures - thanks Jim. Others who continue to use it commercially without contacting me in the very near future risk my severe wrath. I am currently working on an improved version of Mover which will be available in about 4 weeks or so. This version will protect the copyright not just of the original mesh maker (usually Zygote), but also the copyright of the guy that did the modification. I also want to protect my investment in the man hours spent creating Mover, hence the royalty payable for commercial use.

Maz, that sounds cool!

Mason, Mover will work even if only 0.00001% of the figure was from Posette (or whatever) and indeed it should be used even under these circumstances, to protect Zygote against being ripped off, and yourself against being sued for humungous amounts of money.

heyas; just a quickie, here... the poser figures and the vicky figure are copyrighted by zygote. sticking the head on one to the body of another... well, it may be a new character, but the mesh is still 100% zygotes. :) i dont see how you can take two copyrighted things and make a 'free use' thing outta 'em.

Think it may be time to start modeling seriously on my own projects. Marque

Bloodsong, re-read, and re-read CAREFULLY, what I wrote.

my 1cent==please read the thread i posted regarding creature creator

Bloodsong, Sticking the head of one on the body of the other is perfectly OK as long as it's pcf encoded because you can't use it unless you already own both posette and Vickie. You mustn't of course pretend that it's anything other than what it is, a concoction of two Zygote figures which you (or warriorDL) welded together. As long as it's pcf encoded Zygote will be as happy as Larry. In fact, it will probably encourage more people to buy Vickie, so they will be even happier.

I would like to just reiterate the posting by Chad that was quoted by Cooler in msg 12. Also, Those that would like to make money on ther "creations" would be wise to contact Zygote to see if they can help. As long as the seed file is required then the morph or change will upsale our model and make it more valuable...which we are greatful for. If you have any specific questions please let me know at 1(800)267-5170 ext 119 and we will figure it out together. The last thing that we want to do is sue or threaten a lawsuit. We want to work things out, as long as you are willing to work with us. Doug Wheeler doug@zygote.com