dirk, I still fail to see how "they were made independantly from the same mesh" equates to "Mike 3 was made from Vicki 3". Of course, if they were both modeled from a universal mesh, they will look similar. My biggest issue in defense of DAZ is not that I happen to have items for sale there, but because of a few things. Firstly, I noticed the arguments against M3 start along time ago at a time when the arguments were uncalled for and it was prejudgement based on a few small images. This dissention mounted and more and more people jumped on the bandwagon without any cause, until several, though they purchased it, had made up their mind about Mike 3 before it was even released and nothing in the world could change their views. Secondly, Victoria 3 and Michael 3 have completely different joint parameters than their version 2 counterparts. As such, the same poses do not result in the same effect on each figure. they have to be adjusted slightly. A recent comparsion used the same pose on each without taking this into account, so of course Mike 3 appeared to be bent unnaturally in this form. This would of course do Mike 3 no justice and as such would result in more undue bad press. I've got more to say but I need to take a break to do some quick renders that justify what I'm trying to say.