I am stubborn thats right - but I also dont like postwork - for me the "art" or handicraft in rendering is to drive the renderer over the edge or near to it and get it to do what I want. BTW Frefly is in many aspects a puzzler for me, I made a real lot of experiments, and I still dont understand how it reacts in some situations. Stewers page was some help (thanx). I got the P4 renderer somehow under control, but not Firefly. I also wonder about some of the renders in the marketplace - I never get these results so easily. If I buy textures they always look like "s...." when rendered.