Thanks for the quick replies guys. Mark, I can't post anything to egroups at all, I changed my user profile and all I can do is read the mail at the e-groups web site now. No posting & no email sent to my box. I saw Garry in the chat channel and he is looking into it. willf, Carrara's modelers are ok (rds4 was my first 3d app), once you get the basics down in rhino you (IMO) will not be happy modeling in C anymore. It is easier,faster,better and can be cheaper, if you can buy with a student discount. If you any specific questions about the 2, post them & I'll try to answer with what I know. later mdc