Since 4.12, Yes I do run Vue 4 relatively trouble free. I initially used to be able to use background draw, but somewhere along the update line, and I had to switch that off because my Vue display messed up if it was on. My point about many bugs was prior to 4.12 and I think it is fair to say that it took some time to get there, it was prior to those updates that I stopped using it for a year. That still leaves me with having to shut down start up programs in msconfig, to avoid the use of Vue stopping me closing down the computer other than by switching off. I am extremely cautious of free programs and have only a strictly limited number of ones that I feel are okay like, Wings and Lavasofts Adaware, programs known not to carry spyware. I dont have games installed, Shareware I dont entertain, because far too much of it carries advertisers Trojans, Like yourself I wouldnt touch pirated software however cheap, even if I had no particular time for the company that produced the software, on the same basis that I object to any abuse of the owners copyright and rightful income and that includes mesh models etc. I have reinstalled Vue a number of times, each time I reinstall it, the vehicles objects thumbnails duplicate and I have to delete them, long grass appears in plants which the program doesnt have, only as an extra. The computer has been reformatted, so maybe the Hewlett Packard set up is faulty, who knows, but I would expect that to reflect in other programs, which it doesnt, so as I said maybe Vue just doesnt like the set-up. I have tried to get a reason for problems such as the options sudden failure after an update in the past, (which works again now) but eon had no answers, and dont answer when you keep asking. Their answer that it must be Windows or something else, may be right, but my question is why just Vue. As I said the still permanent problems are the import preview picture that started after one update, the computer shut down problems after using Vue, other things are not predictable like freezeups with Booleans, but less since I shut everything down in start-up programs. I had avoided putting my views on the program for some time, because I fear that in the software world you are always expected to say its brilliant in all ways or say nothing. The problems I had with a program upgrade from another company, as mentioned in my last post, proved that criticism wasnt acceptable. I had a letter published in Computer Arts praising their software and support to the skies, then their support rep packed up and the upgrade came out, I couldnt use it for 5 months till the next upgrade, then it was okay again. I realised then that the high standard of support was down to that one man who had left, and I was left floundering for 5 months. Eventually I did take them to task for having ignored me that long, and they acknowledged some had problems but they didnt have any answers, but apologised then for having ignored me. I dont mention their name because its not relevant to this forum. I saw other people with their program get stick if they dared to critisice the program for any faults it had on their systems, but I had learned that blind loyalty to a software company did not help me one iota, if my problems were too difficult for them to try to solve. I will say that in principle Vue is great program, and if you experience no problems I am pleased thats so, but programs do have problems on some set-ups, and it is unlikely to be the set-ups fault unless that is reflected in at least 25% of the other software installed. Sorry about the mention of Wings Guitta, but its an amazingly good little modelling program, and its free, plus runs its own forum to iron out any problems people may have, what more can you ask. :) Sorry also Grunthor, I get the point your making, but I do not use multi IDs to make a point, and it is not operator error, your response is typical of the reasons that people that have less than perfect results from any software have to keep quiet . How lucky we are to live in a democratic world where you are only able to praise software companies. Dave