But Corel didn't know what the hell to DO with bryce. Look at the image on the B5 box for instance! Most of us could have done better than that! The code is now very old and needs rewriting from the ground up, which is what Mo Musgrave was doing when they sacked him and everybody else at Metacreations. Scott, I support what you are doing and wish you all the luck in the world, but get Bryce out of Corel's hands! I agree with Dan Whiteside, get Brian Wagner involved. If anybody needs input about the DTE or somebody to do some cool presets you know where i am ;-) I do wonder whether the petition etc might not have been counter productive, i mean, if you want to get Bryce cheap and get it into the hands of those who know it and care about it you don't tell Corel how great it is and how loyal a community there is etc do you? Oh well, it does sound like you've stirred up a lot of interest and discussion Scott, well done ;-)