but whether poser is a viable tool No, the point of the thread was, "Why isn't Poser better accepted by the serious 3D community?" And my point, which seems to be trampled by the indignant knee-jerk reactions, is that we bring it on ourselves because we limit Poser's capabilities by focusing on one small part of what can be generated through its use. Poser is capable of far more than just "naked women lying around", but you'd hardly know it based on the gallery and it's the gallery that people use as a barometer of what the program can do. You go to cgTalk, and maybe you'll see tons of fantasy images but theyre images executed with far more diversity, both in subject matter and style. Here, you look at the Hot 20, and what do you see? Variations on the same theme, all executed with almost exactly the same style because the artists are all drawng from the same well: the same base mesh, textures with minimal avriance, and painted hair technique that comes straight out of a singular tutorial. ... which was the point of raising BMO and Orion, if you think about it a little. We established earlier in this discussion that it's the market that wants little but pretty girl art and that the merchants, in their drive to sell, will pander to that with great diligence, even to the point of stealing from each other to do so. And the result? Waves of photocopy textures, all with the same skin tone, the same make up, the same general look... because it "sells". It just contributes to the homogenistic inbreeding that plagues this program. Don't try to pull this into a rant about the "high art of pin ups". That's irrelevant to the point of the discussion. If you want to create pin ups, go for it. Have a great time. Call them "art" all you wish. But at the same time, remember that those pin ups and "nude studies" and NVIATs, as interchangable as they most definitely are, are what people outside the Poser community see as about all this program can do because there's not much else for them to see.