Heh.... One of the finest moments I've had was running one of Phoul's animation demo's for a 'real program' snob and watching him get all hot and bothered about how -that- was the way Lightwave could rock! Needless to say, certain portions of his elite anatomy shriveled to nothing when he found out that Vue 4Mover 4 and Poser 4 was the applications used. And the sole issues brought up once the twit got his tongue out of his larynx was how cheap the proggies were, and 'I could model all of that!'. Is there a glut of NVIATWAS? At Renderosity, yes. Renderotica has a rather more diverse subject spectrum (and for anyone looking for what Poser can do, go into the Series gallery and search out 'Proof of Life'). Other sites have their own 'staples', and every program out there has it's iconic 'Oh Ghod, not again!'. There's the Bryce 'Reflective Sphere Over Water'. Vue's 'Mountain by Body of Water With Tree On Shore'. ZBrush's 'And Would You Believe That Is Just A Cube?' AutoCAD has 'The Eternal Gear'. Max, Maya, LW, Cinema4D, TrueSpace, each and every one of them has a glut subjectobject. It's part of the learning process. I'm teaching myself animation with Poser and Vue Pro. Getting to that point in one of the Big Four would require years of practice and study time that I simply do not have. The programs I do have let me get something done, and reasonably quickly. I can learn new techniques as I go along; I do not have to fully master a piece of software to even produce a semi-competent render. If someone considers my work as somehow less due to the tools and resources I use, so what? That kind of attitude is a holdover from kindergarden sandbox politics. My response is to either shrug, of ask if they would like to try it with my cheap, easy programs? Haven't had any takers as of yet.....