I seriously doubt it. What are you, a visual masochist? ;=]

It's possible. Trust me, you wouldn't want to see me anything but fully clothed either.

Tsk, tsk, tsk... Could someone model some water to throw on these two? (Poser water isn't good enough).

It's not the tool or the subject that makes something art...it is the artist and the audience.

WHAT is possible? "Trust me, you wouldn't want to see me anything but fully clothed either." How do you know? After all ... "Beauty is in the eyes ... " ... isn't it? ;=]

Where have they been hiding...someone was looking for those on the Community forum.

but whether poser is a viable tool No, the point of the thread was, "Why isn't Poser better accepted by the serious 3D community?" And my point, which seems to be trampled by the indignant knee-jerk reactions, is that we bring it on ourselves because we limit Poser's capabilities by focusing on one small part of what can be generated through its use. Poser is capable of far more than just "naked women lying around", but you'd hardly know it based on the gallery and it's the gallery that people use as a barometer of what the program can do. You go to cgTalk, and maybe you'll see tons of fantasy images but theyre images executed with far more diversity, both in subject matter and style. Here, you look at the Hot 20, and what do you see? Variations on the same theme, all executed with almost exactly the same style because the artists are all drawng from the same well: the same base mesh, textures with minimal avriance, and painted hair technique that comes straight out of a singular tutorial. ... which was the point of raising BMO and Orion, if you think about it a little. We established earlier in this discussion that it's the market that wants little but pretty girl art and that the merchants, in their drive to sell, will pander to that with great diligence, even to the point of stealing from each other to do so. And the result? Waves of photocopy textures, all with the same skin tone, the same make up, the same general look... because it "sells". It just contributes to the homogenistic inbreeding that plagues this program. Don't try to pull this into a rant about the "high art of pin ups". That's irrelevant to the point of the discussion. If you want to create pin ups, go for it. Have a great time. Call them "art" all you wish. But at the same time, remember that those pin ups and "nude studies" and NVIATs, as interchangable as they most definitely are, are what people outside the Poser community see as about all this program can do because there's not much else for them to see.

It's possible I'm a visual masochist....that should be pretty obvious from my gallery. :)

Uh oh .......... water????? S'ok .......... my doc says I am made up of 98% of that stuff anyway. ;=]

Last statement (#109) was for Dr. Geep. I tend to agree with JoeyAristophanes ... the limitations are within ourselves and not in the possibilities of the tools. Out of here...need to grab some lunch.

" It's possible I'm a visual masochist ..." Well, in that case ... ;=]

when I think about it, I see BMO (not Orion, I can give him the benefit of the doubt) being just one more in a long line of copycatting behaviour that I saw in 3d chats with characters. It goes like this. See something you like, nick it, call it yours, say how wonderful you are, try to make a buck off it if you can. They do it in the art forums by posting other peoples renders and art too, from airbrushed work, to photography, to lowend Poser, all the way up to highend Maya. People rip off meshes and textures, and reuse and resell them to the point of making you ill in the 3d games and chats. Heck most of the hair you see for the Sims are Poser models, sometimes offered for free, sometimes not. And in most cases, nobody was asked. Egos and money, that's all that was, and is. Poser is no different from painting in many ways, its overall cheap and a lot of people can afford to play. Pinup can be downright pedestrian or it can be fine art like Olivia and Serpieri. Big deal.

Wolf359: ey man...what renderer did you use to make the photo in #77? Carrara or Poser 5? its freaaaaken greaaaat!!! now that's GREAT work man! please please tell us..... =) bijouchat: ugh!! hey man, did you have to post a pic of a woman with hairy pits in #79? thats NOT HOT at all!! maybe in France and Cuba...but not here in the good old USA! =) ::::shivers::::

i protest!! this is outragous!!! =)

she looks real, that was MY point. Now Poser women have to always look hot is Joey's point. g

and Wolf359 didn't make that pic. He got it off the web as an example of what can be done in a highend app. Victoria 3 can look just as good given the right shaders and texture maps, placed in an app such as Lightwave. (where she was created anyway) last but not least, I'm not male.

I'd just like to reitererate what FyreSpiryt wrote:
""On the argument that Poser work made of purchased components is not "art":
I realize no one's going to pay attention to this, but I'm going to say it anyway, so I can get it in print, save it to my harddrive somewhere, and just copy and paste it the next time this vampiric (undying and energy-sucking) conversation comes up.
Collage is by definition an art. (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dicitonary, 10th Edition). Thus all arguments that anything is not "art" because it is an assembly of "other's" components are invalid. ""

I was paying attention, FyreSpiryt, thank you for that !

And to those who think the Poser gallery is so full of repetitive rubbish that they never bother to look for the odd gem anymore to leave a useful and improving comment on, well , thank heaven for small mercies, isn't my life all the poorer for lack of your edifying and helpful comments . NOT .

I'm gonna go do another nekkid chik collage pik now, might even throw in a sword for good luck and then postwork it to death.

The BEST THING about Poser is that since I started using it I don't watch all that c**p on telly anymore !

PS :The other night at a party I had a jerk go all snooty on me because I'm trying to learn to use Carrara 3 (" cheap wanna be app" ) instead of Max which he uses......there's just no winning with people who see life as one big contest.......call me defeatest but why try ? Then I told him I use Poser just to see him choke on his drink ; )

fair enough..... but dont do that again though! LOL..... =)

" ... just to see him choke ..." ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gini, if you need with Carrara help just toss me a line, I'm bijou on other forums. I use it all the time, its got one of the best renderers out there, regardless of price. Excellent example of the fact that its got to do with price and not function.

Gini: brign on em nekkid chiks.....that what we like!! hell ye! =) u probably wont understand anyway cause you aint a guy....a guy with primal beastly desires......cause thats what we are.....n we like it!

ye....Carrara 2.1 is great....i got it several months ago.....havent used it yet really.....but i know its great though....if that makes sense.......

apologies.....i just gotta get used to new times.... some women are gettin into crap most men obses on....like Poser n stuff.......

biggert-I'm missing something here ? What exactly are 'apologies' for and what new times are you refering to ? Women have always been 'into crap most men obsess on, perhaps just quieter about it. It's easier for us as we can just look in a mirror to see what gravity and age might do........and then ignore it anyway. Bijouchat- Thanks ! I'll probably take you up on that. It was a Xmas present and I've only just cracked it open.

Heh.... One of the finest moments I've had was running one of Phoul's animation demo's for a 'real program' snob and watching him get all hot and bothered about how -that- was the way Lightwave could rock! Needless to say, certain portions of his elite anatomy shriveled to nothing when he found out that Vue 4Mover 4 and Poser 4 was the applications used. And the sole issues brought up once the twit got his tongue out of his larynx was how cheap the proggies were, and 'I could model all of that!'. Is there a glut of NVIATWAS? At Renderosity, yes. Renderotica has a rather more diverse subject spectrum (and for anyone looking for what Poser can do, go into the Series gallery and search out 'Proof of Life'). Other sites have their own 'staples', and every program out there has it's iconic 'Oh Ghod, not again!'. There's the Bryce 'Reflective Sphere Over Water'. Vue's 'Mountain by Body of Water With Tree On Shore'. ZBrush's 'And Would You Believe That Is Just A Cube?' AutoCAD has 'The Eternal Gear'. Max, Maya, LW, Cinema4D, TrueSpace, each and every one of them has a glut subjectobject. It's part of the learning process. I'm teaching myself animation with Poser and Vue Pro. Getting to that point in one of the Big Four would require years of practice and study time that I simply do not have. The programs I do have let me get something done, and reasonably quickly. I can learn new techniques as I go along; I do not have to fully master a piece of software to even produce a semi-competent render. If someone considers my work as somehow less due to the tools and resources I use, so what? That kind of attitude is a holdover from kindergarden sandbox politics. My response is to either shrug, of ask if they would like to try it with my cheap, easy programs? Haven't had any takers as of yet.....

aight...its coo....its coo.....its all good. only in America

DaleB- Lol, love the 'staples', and true. biggert-and in the UK........ anyway, I'm outta here for the night. And on behalf of tomorrow : Wishing you all a fun New Years Eve and a Happy New Year -XXX Gini

DaleB: Way up in the thread, I commented that my own experience with Bryce presentations at CGTalk had been really good -- no one trashed the software used, no one gave me grief because it wasn't LW or Max. I honestly don't think there are as many software snobs at places like CGTalk as we're led to believe. Bijou: Now Poser women have to always look hot is Joey's point. You wish, hon. :)

And my point, which seems to be trampled by the indignant knee-jerk reactions

Who jerked? What jerk -- where?

This jerk, maybe?

PS :The other night at a party I had a jerk go all snooty on me because I'm trying to learn to use Carrara 3 (" cheap wanna be app" ) instead of Max which he uses......there's just no winning with people who see life as one big contest.......call me defeatest but why try ? Then I told him I use Poser just to see him choke on his drink ; )

Must have been some party! I've never been to a party where 3D software was a hot topic of conversation. Boring talk about corporate direction, profits, etc.......but not 3D software.

Great opening line: "I've got Max and Lightwave! And I'm NOT one of those Poser geeks!"

Who jerked? What jerk -- where? Oh, you know, the usual: "What I do is ART, dammit!!!" :)

I've heard of Art Deco but ... What is Art Dammit? ;=]

Oh, sorry ...................... didn't see the comma. ;=[

What is Art Dammit? Beaver art? You know, as in little animals that build.... oh, never mind.

Attached Link: Beaver Art

I'm not gonna touch that one with a 120" pole. ;=]

Really, little animals. And art. And I would like it noted that I am a 62" Pole and I touched it. :)

And if ya gots blue eyes, I spose yer gonna tell us that they wrote a song 'bout cha, huh. ;=]

Because, as we know, art is in the eye of the beholder.

Yeah, I know the cliche is about beauty...but beauty isn't really what this thread is about. Art is originality creativity imagination looking at the world in a new way bringing that new way to the audience Anything less, is just a picture, a graphic, a doodle. A picture, a graphic, a doodle can be art. But art is something that rises above the tools. I really believe that. And if you think endless repetitions of the same graphic is art, then you are right in there with Thomas Kinkaid, who does lovely, mindless repeats of the same thing. And that's okay if that's what you want to do. But is it art? No, I think art is something more than the endless repeating of someone else's original idea. And why much of what is done in Poser isn't art. And why it is so lovely to discover art in Poser when it happens.

this got nothing tha do with this thread but gots tha say it. As the God Father of Soul Mr. James Brown said: "Livin in Americaaaaa" :::shaking my hips now and doing that dance of the white man::::

this got nothing tha do with this thread but gots tha say it. As the creator of the "Twist" Mr. Chubby Checker said: "Twist and shout!" :::shaking my hips now and doing that dance of the black man::::

Hank Ballard, who wrote the song, died this year. I bet they are twisting up a storm up there now. :)

this got nothing tha do with this thread but gots tha say it. As the creator of "The Magic Flute" Mr. W. A. Mozart said: "(insert string of consonants here)!" :::shaking my helmet now and doing that dance of the really big soprano::::

this got nothing to do with the thread butI gottsa ... ~does the snoopy dance~

"Everybody dance..." -- Corky Sherwood, Waiting for Guffman

Oh who the hell cares? Do you need someone to validate you? Do whatever you want and don't give a damn what anyone says.

Knee-jerk ? Moi ? I was just dancing 'round my 2 pence. Post 149 says it best.........but then we'd never have fun squabbles.

Funny that when folks can't respond any other way, they drag out a nun to make a point. Whatever, folks. Just don't start whining about Poser not getting any respect when you can't even do it yourself. :: off to dance ::