Huolong - wouldnt know what exactly you mean by "suck" - at that xxx-site I guess :) Aha, so it has some good models. So they have good models and even sucking xxx-stuff! Let us be honest, all Poser characters, P3, P4, are (didnt I read exactly that at this forum a coupla months ago?) maybe up to somewhere between cartoon and "mannequin" level - Zy God or not. Poser aint no Lightwave and no Character Studio either - but it is a nice-and-easy app, which is why we like it - so lets not get religious (mormon?) about little details man. Ill try and check with C-Force what will happen to that xxx-stuff (maybe they just want to get rid of it) but I know they have some very nice new structures with several more body parts (better bending)- ironically, they call them "Poser 5 figures". Compatible ? Hard to say - poor Poser 4.03... They made for mass in the past, they want to make for class in the future, words - but sounds good to me. Well I think this is all a partial misunderstanding anyway - Cacheforce model for at least 3 or 4 apps, one of them (maybe the least important) being Poser - now that is of course bound to get complicated. Aiming to have characters available for all sorts of animation work etc. - look at their www.3-d-models.com, pretty fresh one. Why talk these guys into the ground? They are a welcome addition - well the 170 didnt hurt me for sure... certainly worth the price, but then I also had a mountainous update this summer. Now please, enough of that Cacheforce vs. Zygote nonsense - cant you see that they are just 2 different sides of the medal, not opposed at all ? Over. More important: what IS behind all the changes from Meta to err... ah yes, Curious Labs and Egyisys (I keep confusing the names)? Does anybody know who REALLY owns Poser now? Got the impression it is owned by 3 different parties, correct me if Im wrong, and one of them may well be situated in Utah - if you catch my drift, there. Will they fare better than Metacreations did ? Oh how often I have advised collegues to buy Poser instead of CStudio etc. as an addon for Max or Lightwave... now I read Zygote have the MC version for sale, limited number, what, 250 bucks ? Good price ! Not that I paid any more a year ago... But they dontt sell a whole lot it seems and to me that is a pity. Poser (all-over) needs to become more attractive to the professional crowd. But I am running adrift - anybody who knows more about the inside/ownership stuff, come out into the open - I would just love to hear... I do love Poser, its among the most wonderful 3d apps ! Trying to keep a sense of perspective, Pete