Damn, looks like a new card for me then (no more driver updates for my card) ;( .. well maybe not .. I tried using wireframe drawing including lit wireframe and they all work fine.. its just the shaded modes that screw up the manipulator thingy. I had a go at posing in wireframe (ewwwww) and it all seems to work fine but I found that I didn't really like the direct manipulator tool very much anyway so I may just have to get used to using dials (ewwwww again Thanx for your advice all.. Best wishes Barrie. PS it wasnt just Sara it was low res mike and vicky that came with DS as well.