Ahem. (I usually preface long winded speeches that way) How do you think hackers get caught? Do you think universities take a average person off the street, immerse them in computer knowledge for 4-5 years, examine them on what they have been taught, then give them a shiny CompSci diploma, at which time they are more than qualified and capable to catch some 17 year old kid in his basement trying to find open ports on DSL lines? Nope. the CompSci guy is generally pretty much clueless. The 17 year old kid screwing around is occasionally very, very, very smart, and sometimes obsessed. He does this because he LOVES IT. the CompSci guy does it because he wants a fat paycheck. I've worked in the computer industry since 1990; I'm a MCSE, have lots of little pieces of paper saying how much I know about computers and networks. I've done security for major banks, and was Wide Area Administrator for the U.S. Army recruiting command. I still frequently do security consulting. I have NEVER taken a computer class, aside from a free one week class from microsoft. Take a wild guess how I learned about networks. SO. don't label all hackers with the same label. There has been a tendency to do this quite a bit lately, and one of the outcomes is we are intentionally destroying our pool of people capable of actually catching bad guy hackers (instead of writing position papers and holding strategy meetings on how to stop them). As to Virus writers, kill 'em. or better yet, set them on fire, and use the fire to roast the spammers. Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week, try the veal.