Hey, First of all I'm not the quiting kind.... It may take me a while, but once I have it, I will have a greater understanding of the whole process in general. I knew that I would tackle this issue at one point or another. Part of the problem is that I don't have the usual programs that could make it a little easier. I have to find a work around that works for the OS and programs that I do have. Enough of my rantting. Bloodsong, Thanks for your words, and posible work around..I have tried what you have said before the last post.... I finally went to your site, man you are prolific artist I wish I could turn stuff out that quickly. the wory is very nice also. And to answer to your questions... First let me clarify (lack of sleep does wonders on the mind). the reasons that the back face didn't were gone was because I (not paying attention) didn't select the back faces when I grouped it in the first place... The laces were separate piece, not built in to the model, that could be changed. What seems to happen though, strangely enough, is if I leave the shoulder parts in; the collars, remain.. Weird. One thing that I didn't consider is that I made the model based on a body that was modified Should I have made it for a base body, then reshaped it along with the body... I'm trying to understand the correct procedure...Most tutorials don't address this point... My assumption is that they meke them for standard non-modified bodies. thanks for your help. Web