Hm, time outs eat your posts! OK, Here is a cheesy example of why I shouldn't render stuff, lol. I'm just taking a break from XFrog and poser crashing (or adding crap to the model that shouldn't be there...arg!) This shows two slightly different versions of the dogwood in xfrog...not really happy with them still. I think it's the overall shape or distribution of the blossoms! Suggestions are greatly appreciated. I'll post one without all the extra junk. eric