Give you an edge.... Considering the lambasting P5 takes on a regular basis, calling the renderer "an edge" is pretty funny. I see regular posts here about how crappy the Firefly renders are, usually with a response that suggests learning how to use the render options. Anyway, I don't think it's fair to consider the renderer outside any more than it would be to consider add-ons like the shaders, dynamic cloth, and dynamic hair "outside." And if we can't use the renderer, the materials, or dynamic cloth, then, like I said, it should be a P4 Challenge. BTW: I'm agreeing with you, in case that's not clear. ;) M