I take it from what Sambucus said earlier that I am among those he suggests were giving Bazze a hard time, but I don't think I was, he asked for opinions and I gave him mine. I do agree that images that are loaded with oodles of freebies can sometimes be terrible, but that depends on who's hands and mind are creating the image. If an image stands out as a great piece of artwork, even if it does contain some freebies, then it is still a great piece of artwork and should be given the recognition it deserves. If anything I said was offensive Bazze please accept my apologies and know that I did not intend to offend. Happy rendering 8) Catlin