Yes Daverj I realise his "point" is that p5 can do things p4 can't, but so far other than a post from him with cloth I haven't seen anything that proves it to me. Cloth, hair and procedural shaders don't make it for me, I have far superior capabilities with Cinema 4D and while the CL import plugin is disfunctional I can use Cinema for everything. I don't "hate" P5 but until there's something shown that proves it really IS better than P4 I'm not convinced. Why "should" I buy P5? A question that applies to a lot of people who use other software. Poser 4/Pro Pack supports export/import filters for major applications, something that costs a fair chunk of change extra with Poser 5. So what does Poser 5 offer that I can't get in Cinema, Lightwave, Max, Carrara etc.? Even the "procedural" shader shown here can be replicated after a fashion in Poser 4, if I do the same thing in Cinema (and Firefly is touted as a premium render engine) it's far superior. So, rather than combative posts and thread titles, and there's been more than a few of those from biggert, maybe some real effort to show what P5 and firefly can do would be a better direction than trying to trash other software?