geep, I saw your panel in another thread but forgot to come back here with a 'nevermind'. I too like the silliness, I'm just not always sure how to respond. :) EnglishBob, winding order is generally used to compute the normal. I suspect Poser ignores them and generates it's own so it can do the phong shading interpolation smoothly across group boundaries, ignoring (potentially) duplicate vertices, where other programs would normally show a seam. One exception of course is in importing .dxf files. They always have seams on every face, or look faceted, if you prefer.