BTW the Poser 5 box and literature said All the functionality of ProPack and I never did see plugins included or not included, it was only stated after Poser 5 came out that the plugins for Max and lightwave had to be updated and that they were a priority but that they would be released later on (no time or date stated). that's what I was illuding to when I mentioned waiting 1.5 year for lightwave plugin. BTW the people stating these things ain't at CL no more so there ya are.