Sandoppe, Their programmers used to come here... and got treated pretty damned shabbily. It was especially mortifying to see the crowd applaud and congratulate themselves everytime one of the people who actually made the program we rely upon got chased out. Marketing folks have thicker skins (or flak jackets). We were spoiled. Nobody from Adobe or Corel ever came in here, and people from Eon, etc.. basically drop by only to make an announcement and then scuttle back into obscurity. Carolly